Provisional and permanent. The words that shock some new hires, creates feelings of hopelessness in those who haven’t taken a test in years, and fear in those who have been working provisionally for a while and realize they may possibly be in a bind…
I figured let’s start here. Because many people sit down at an interview with me and, when I bring this topic up, we get into the confusion and uncertainty of the city civil service world, causing the candidate to question the whole process and reassess whether this is for them.
I don’t bring this up at the beginning of an interview. I usually run with the initial standard interview questions. Like what animal would you want to be, what your greatest weakness is, or why are manhole covers round… Not really – even this civil servant recognizes the stupidity of questions like these. Or even “where do you see yourself in five years?” The candidate is probably thinking “… in five years I hope to be your boss and brutally overwork you for a stupid question like this, dumbass…”
Then the derailment – “Right now the job is what is called a ‘provisional’ hiring. You will work for us, but you will ultimately have to take a test, pass it, and be in a position where the agency can get to you on the list.”
Or even worse – hearing this after quitting your previous job and getting hired by the city, thinking you’ve got it made, and then find out a test is coming up and you need to take it or your city job may be at risk.
Now, let’s backtrack a bit. This does not apply if you took a test, passed, made the list, were called to an interview for a “probable permanent” position, and were hired. In this case, you did ‘make it’ and just need to live through your probationary period. You can now spend your time providing value and service to the citizens of the Big Apple and not worry about a regular paycheck.
So, why would the city hire provisionally, or “Provisionals” as they are commonly referred to? Well, because the need for someone to do the job is now. Maybe there was a list, but the list was exhausted (no more qualified candidates left). There is no upcoming test for a particular job. Perhaps there were retirements and an agency needs to backfill the positions as soon as possible. There have been instances where a test was given, but it was not “certified” by the city yet (more on that another time). The candidate may have taken the test and “felt pretty good about it” (that she believed she may have passed it) so the agency hired her provisionally with the hopes that she made the list, and can be reached (in a position high enough on the list where your agency can get to you) – or if another agency calls she can move to that agency and become permanent.
Let’s use an example. A title that I’m familiar with – Radio Repair Mechanic. Let’s say I’m the manager of a city radio maintenance facility that uses Radio Repair Mechanics and, due to recent system upgrades and projects, I get some openings for positions. However, there are no active hiring lists from the Department of Citywide Administrative Services (DCAS – the agency that develops, administers, generates, calculates, and certifies tests, validates answer keys, and generates hiring lists, among other services). So, without an “active” list – lists generally are active for up to four years – I have no pool of candidates to hire from. So I am authorized to hire “Provisionals”.
However, in the meantime DCAS did have a test for Radio Repair Mechanic, but has not generated a new hiring list of candidates, or just a “list” for short.
The agency “posts” the job, maybe advertises on the job websites, or has it on their own agency website. Sometimes the posting may reflect that “only candidates that took test 1234 should apply”. Maybe not. Maybe someone that’s in need of a job and didn’t take the test will take the job out of desperation and hope that the list is exhausted before a decision is made to “backfill” his position.
So, Human Resources (HR) receives and compiles resumes, results from the job websites, and sets up dates and times for interviews.
The interviews begin. I run through the interviews and several have wisely responded that they would like to be a French Bulldog or Pug (I own one of each) because they are not too big or mean and they are cuddly and warm, or that in five years they see that the job is an exciting platform for growth and how they are thrilled to facilitate the deployment of life saving technology as they continue to thrive in educational endeavors.
Then “the Talk”. “We are filling this job provisionally. Are you familiar with the process?”
To the flowchart – If no, explain what a provisional is (as I did in the above paragraphs). If yes – then “did you take the Radio Repair Mechanic Test 1234?”
This is where some “meat” is. “How do you think you did?” I may ask. “Would you want to accept the job provisionally without knowing if you passed?”
Being familiar with the Radio Repair Mechanic title, I would be comfortable to encourage the candidate to accept the job as a provisional because the qualifications for the job are not easily met by others, the lists are generally low in numbers, the lists of candidates are shared with several different agencies, and the likelihood of getting to keep my candidate is relatively high. And if they didn’t do well on the test (meaning failed), they may not necessarily lose their job because of the low number of candidates.
I do NOT recommend this as a general method – this hypothetical description is only meant to help explain an unfamiliar and somewhat complicated process. Each list is different, each title is different, and each person’s situation is different. Lists for PAA’s, Stockworkers, and other titles are usually large and the risk of a provisional losing their job that did not take and/or pass the test is very high as well as if they didn’t score high enough to be “reached”.
Bottom line – accept a provisional position only AFTER you understand the risks and are willing to work at risk until such time as you pass and are appointed off of a civil service list.
Questions and Comments welcomed below.
Image Courtesy of Gratisography.com. Buy the man a coffee!
Hi Chris,
I am so glad to have found your site. I need some advice from you. I am currently a provisional serving a high managerial position. I am a CPA, and I was hired into one of NYC’s largest agencies as an administrative accountant. I play a key role inside the agency.
Here is what intrigue you. There only 9 employees with administrative accountant title inside this agency, including both permanent and provisional status. I see my name there in the DACS open data as a provisional under this title. I have taken the exam and passed. I am on open competitive list for my title and my number is already in the 100+. My agency also has a promotional list for this same title and there currently 150+ candidates on this list. According to the law, my agency will have to exhaust all the candidates on the promotional list before reaching to the open competitive list. I’d like to stress, there only 8 people with this title in my agency and you can see my chances of being reached, The list will expire in 2025, two years from now. I am certain that I would not be reached by the time the list expires.
Here is what I see in this big picture, I was hired in 2019, this is my first city job. I’ve already serviced the agency for 4 years. I have nothing to fall back on because this is my 1st job. I love my job and I only wanted to be appointed within this agency. However, I feel very violated because I, along with my permanent colleagues, do the same type of work for years now, I perform very well at my job but in exchange, I do not receive any protection over my job, or have the same right as other permanent colleagues. I see there is a big hole in the law that it offers no protection for currently employed Provisionals, who work as hard as the permanent employees, already on the job for years, passed the exam and got on the list, to become permanent within a reasonable time.
What can I do in this situation? If there is a big layoff in my agency, I would not be protected. Isn’t this the opposite to the original purpose of the civil service law, which grants job protection to qualified civil service employees?
I will be greatly appreciated for any advise. Should I start contacting a lawyer?
Thank you!
Hi Amy,
It appears you and your colleagues may be in a tough situation.
Although you are working hard for the city and have specific knowledge that is beneficial to your agency, as well as years of experience, none of this is considered by the city when it comes to selecting persons off of a civil service list.
This has been an ongoing and big, big problem for NYC as well as other municipalities throughout NYS. Although this may not help, the City of Long Beach, NY had an issue several years ago where they terminated provisionals with many years of service – one had 19 years of service (read this post here). This prompted the state to push municipalities to reduce their provisionals as quickly as possible.
The city was loaded with provisionals and had concerns that they would lose a ton of institutional knowledge and specific skills if they just terminated them. Nor could DCAS host enough exams quickly enough to fill the positions. So, they developed a “Qualified Incumbents Exam” or QIE. If you had two years or more working in a title and met the education or other qualifications (had a particular license, etc.) you would “pass” and be placed on a list to be picked off by your agency.
I haven’t seen a QIE recently, so I suspect the city has reduced its provisional count to an acceptable level to satisfy the state. So they seem to be supporting a regular testing schedule.
With all that said, the city is supposed to only keep provisionals for 9 months, but, as you know, they can be kept on for much longer.
The only thing I can recommend is to get some insight on how your agency is proceeding. Sometimes they wait a long time to call people off the open competitive list hoping the candidates will have found some other job along the way. But the Promotional may be a bit different in that they are already in the city “machine” and can wait it out for a promotion. But anything can happen there too – some will wait to be called for their own agency, others may have circumstances that make it more favorable to stay where they are.
You can talk to a lawyer. Here’s a link to one that specializes in Civil Service Law. I never used them or called them so I can’t vouch for them, but they’ve been around a long time. Maybe they can provide some options.
I know your situation because I was in the same one when I started. I started as a provisional and stayed one until a test was given two years later. Luckily, I passed and was reachable – and the rest is history.
I hope things work out for you and Good Luck! – Chris
So you take Civil Service test and have 90 day working day test period fail and get terminated. You obtain a job provisionally you take Civil Service test you fail but can stay employed because there is a need. Sound like non provisional worker is being discriminated against. The provisional worker gets to work without burden of test. If working for more time gets more experience.
Hi,
I don’t have much to offer here – it is true that the provisional situation is a difficult one. I’m not sure if the 90 day working period with termination is for the same title and agency as the provisional job you mention. If it’s the same person that was not hired permanently but brought back provisionally, that does sound a bit strange. But some titles are hard to fill and the city has to still keep running. There was a very strong push to cut back on provisionals while DiBlasio was in office, but I haven’t heard anything about provisional reduction for a while. The city reports that they have a difficult time hiring but I think some of it is their own doing. I know several people interested in open jobs with the city – even some that are on an active list – that don’t seem to get a call back or called off of the list.
Good luck! – Chris
Hi Chris,
I have been working in a provisional capacity as a Child Welfare Specialist II since 2017. In 2019 I used my Child Protective Specialist List # when it came up to secure that position. I want to apply for the Child Welfare Specialist Supervisor test, but cannot do it because I’m still “provisional” in the specialist position, nor can I apply for most other jobs because they require my current position to be permanent in order for me to apply.
I took the Child Welfare Specialist test prior to COVID, and have not received notification to date of being on the list.
I feel so stuck! Any advice from you will help, because I’m seeking other opportunities but the provisional title keeps me stuck.
Hi,
So, I didn’t find any info on active lists for Child Welfare Specialist so I don’t know if or when it would come out or be certified.
I think either checking with your HR on next steps or DCAS directly would be your next step. I would almost recommend you file for and take the promotion test in anticipation of making the list and becoming permanent, but there are a few “if” that come with that. If you made the list, if the agency can reach you in time, if the list even comes out before the promotional list. The risk is loss of your time in taking the exam plus the cash you had to put out to take it.
See if you can get better answers from DCAS. Contact info is on their contact page but here is some info: “Civil Service & Citywide Personnel Inquiries, call (212) 669-1357” or you could email them at LMACustomerService@dcas.nyc.gov
Good luck! – Chris
If you are probable permanent and were hired off the list, but have not completed your probation of 1 year yet, do you still get a salary increase under the new Economic agreement?
Hi,
Yep – as long as you are actively working in an eligible title you will get your salary increase and probably even back pay to the date when you started.
Good luck! – Chris
Hello Chris,
I was hired as a provisional for NYPD as a Evidence and Property specialist. I have been working for a year and a half. The list just came out and thankfully I have taken the test. But my score is not very high. I wish I had worked in this field before I took the exam where I could have scored much higher. What are my chances of keeping my job? Does hands on experience help in becoming permanent? Or I can be replaced at any time? How does it all work? And is administrations recommendations any help? And how fast can the decision be made? I’ve worked so hard through the whole pandemic and now I can lose my job?
I’m truly starting to worry.
Hi Sandy,
Well, the good news is that you’re on the list. However, there is a risk that they can’t get to you on the list and will have to fill it with someone higher on the list.
Several factors will now come into play here. Being that they have you onboard already is significant. They won’t have to train someone new, they’re familiar with your work ethic, attendance, and how you interact – all very important soft skills.
Then there’s the normal churn on the list – some people will stay at their current job or get counter offers and not leave; others will not meet the minimum qualifications or fail a background check and be removed, and some people are just checking it out because they want to say they work for NYPD if the price is right.
If you’ve ever read the Chief, you’ll see that the city called maybe 20 people from a list for “2 positions” because of this churn. They are already expecting some to not show, others to not have the qualifications, and others to turn it down because it wasn’t what they expected.
I’m not sure how it would specifically work at PD but depending on what pressure they are getting to replace provisionals, they might be able to hold out on calling the list so that only those working there or the ones that sincerely want the job will remain. This could run the life of the list – up to 4 years.
So, it’s still a battle, but there are things in your favor that put you at an advantage.
Not the news you were hoping to hear, but you’re still in the game!
Hope this helps and Good Luck! – Chris
How long does it usually take to get budget approval for a position? Its been 4 months now, I have done the interview, been offered the position and is now waiting for budget approval before they can move on to the hiring process.
Hi,
Unfortunately, it’s hard to know. With the city concerned about loss in revenue due to the coronavirus they’ve been very conservative with their spending – taking much longer in approving purchases and double checking the numbers for everything. I’m sure they’re doing the same for hiring.
This is very nerve wracking. I had a similar situation 30 years ago when I was waiting for my call. I was getting frustrated and had another job lined up. If it was delayed one more week I would have been working for the private company instead of the city.
As a former boss would tell me, “the wheels of the city turn slowly, but they do turn”. Not much of a consolation, though…
Good luck and I hope they call you soon! – Chris
Hello I took a civil service test made the list and got pulled from the list. What are your rights during the probation period.
Hey Sonia, congratulations!
For general probation, you have to maintain a good standing for the entire period, usually one year. In most cases, just doing a good job, being on time, working safely, not creating a “hostile” work environment, should get you through probation as well as through your career.
There are other provisions, so specifics would be needed to address any concerns you might have. NYC DCAS personnel rule V in section 2 explains certain expectations and terms for probation. If you’re in a DC37 title, the citywide contract also has details regarding probation – more in regards to layoffs and moving around in and out of titles. Search for “probation” while in the citywide contract and you’ll see various references to probationers.
So you’re on your way to a great career!
Good luck! – Chris
My son is a provisional worker with nyc and had knee surgery. He’ll be out about 4 weeks. Does he have to worry?
Hi Lisa,
I’m a bit behind on my responses, so you probably have your answer by now.
But I would think, generally, no – he won’t have a problem.
Even though he’s a provisional, depending on how long he’s worked for the city, he probably accrued some sick time. I’ll assume he’s covered under the DC37 Citywide Contract, but without knowing specifically what title he’s in or if he’s in a different union (like Electrician’s Local 3 or Teamsters Local 237) the rules may vary.
So, the Citywide Contract says:
“Approval of sick leave in accordance with the Leave Regulations is discretionary with the agency and proof of disability must be provided by the employee, satisfactory to the agency within five (5) working days of the employee’s return to work. However, the employer may request proof of disability when an employee has been on sick leave for five or more consecutive working days. Such proof satisfactory to the agency must be submitted within five working days of such request.”
And
“(3) Approval of such leave is discretionary with the agency and proof of disability must be provided by the employee satisfactory to the agency within five (5) working days of the employee’s return to work.”
Each agency writes their own Time and Leave policy and may have additional requirements. For example, the Fire Department required a specific form to be filled out to use sick leave. A regular doctor’s note wouldn’t usually suffice.
If he doesn’t have enough sick time to cover the 4 weeks, they MAY allow him to get an advance on sick time or use his annual leave time. But that is discretionary and not required.
So, as long as he stays in touch with his bosses and keeps them informed and up to date with doctor’s notes and/or whatever else the agency needs, he should be fine.
Hope he is recovering well if he’s had the surgery and good luck to both of you! – Chris
Greetings Chris,
Thank you for facilitating such a dialogue. I read as many comments as possible to see if my question has been asked and answered; there is so much dialogue…so apologies if I missed it and am reposting something similar. I’d like to circle back to your statement regarding “List expirations” (4 years); I took an exam and passed (100%, but so have many others 846 others to be exact, Lol) My question: When my current list expires, is it wise to look out for the exam again and retake?
I worked for the “City” for 21 years…you would think I would know this stuff already; however, this is what happens when you go into a city job as practically a baby. It is people like you who are the greatest, sharing such insight, because there is no one who readily shares this information. I had a good run with the city and learned quite a lot and will always be grateful for being able to provide for my family without worry. Moreover, even with so much work experience I have many years before retirement (due to age, a drawback of going in so young, maybe…); now it’s time for more security for my remaining years. With List no. 845, I doubt I will be called before this list expires *sigh* Happy New Year!
Regards,
Ms. Lamb
Hi Ms. Lamb,
I’m glad I can be of some help – that’s why I started this website. Learning from “the school of hard knocks” is not a pleasant way to move forward. So, maybe a few tips I can share will make someone else’s journey a bit easier…
21 years so far is a nice run! So, if you don’t get picked off of the list this time I would absolutely recommend taking the next test until you do get picked up. You don’t say if you’re a permanent in a title and looking for a promotion or if you’re a provisional now. 21 years as a provisional is a long time…
Now, depending on the title, there still may be a shot even at 845. Depending on the qualifications of the individual, what agencies have picked up their provisionals, what people don’t want the job now, etc. over a 4 year period they may be able to reach you. Yes, it’s far down. Throw in the 1 in 3 rule and maybe there is a chance.
But you do want that permanent title. With the talk of (postponed) layoffs and agency cutbacks, you want to get as much protection as you can. If you have a permanent title and are going for a promotion, good luck!
Thanks! – Chris
Hello,
I work for HRA and my 1 year probation ended a few days ago. None of my supervisors mentioned it.
Most of the staff is working from home so this might be why they forgot.
What is the procedure when going from probation to permanent? Are there forms I need to sign? Do I have a meeting with my supervisors? Or do I just keep working and forget about it….they have been happy with my performance so far so I am assuming if I was going to get fired, they would have told me already.
Thank you!
Hi Amy,
I apologize for the delayed response – I’ve been inundated with questions and have had trouble keeping up.
I believe I would advise an employee that they completed probation – and I think I was required to do a personnel evaluation (using the annual evaluation form) once probation was over. I believe my HR would remind me of this because I wouldn’t necessarily remember. I don’t think there was any specific form that the employee would have to complete. I think just getting past the one year and no requests for extensions would complete it.
You’re probably right – with everyone working from home it makes it harder to keep up with tasks that are outside of your division/department so your supervisors my have just missed this.
If you haven’t already, I’d bring it to the supervisors attention. It’s one thing you want to be done and “in the rear view mirror” so to speak… In writing is even better. Doesn’t have to be fancy – an email will do. But you do want it recognized that you’ve completed your probation period satisfactorily and are now a permanent in your title.
DCAS has some information here and here – but it has more information on the “other” sides of probation – extensions, reinstatements, etc. Doesn’t specifically say that a formal recognition is needed.
But you’re right. No news is good news. It is a big deal and should be more formally recognized. And, as a permanent, you have some strong protection should the layoff talks start up again.
Good luck and congratulations on completing probation! – Chris
Good evening,
I have been working for the state for a while now. One year per diem and then nine months provisional. I took my civil service test for my position. When I took the exam, I experienced COVID-19 symptoms during the test, was diagnosed with influenza. I found out that I failed the examination. My question is, am I able to appeal for a retest?
Hi Ray,
Sorry for the delayed response, I’ve been swamped…
Anyway, for NYC it doesn’t seem like you can reschedule a second test unless you had certain events that took place – see this NYC Personnel Rules and Regulations Section 4.4.5. Second or Special Examinations.
Now, that’s for NYC but you’re working for the state. I’m not sure how it’s handled at the state level. Perhaps contacting them here could get you better answers.
Good luck! – Chris
Hi,
Are there any protection for the community coordinator title? They seem to be under DC 37. I don’t see any exams in the dcas website for that title, not even in the archives. Were there layoffs for community coordinators titles? What if one is in a permanent title such as PAA and they take a job in the community coordinator title, would that person be a pure provisional ?
Hi Lisa,
Community Coordinator is under the non-competitive class, so there is no test. Agencies tend to use this to fill jobs where there is no “clean” title on where a particular job might fit. I’ve also seen it used to do a quick hiring without any issues, like calling from a list.
I will leave you to check with DCAS to confirm ((212) 669-1357 or LMACustomerService@dcas.nyc.gov) but I believe it is a provisional only title and no one becomes permanent in that title. I don’t know of anyone laid off from that title, but I presume it’s possible. Not sure how it would be handled with any “provisional reduction” plans but I guess that would be up to the agency.
If you’re a permanent PAA, then that would give you a fallback position (as long as the agency has PAA’s, if this was a move to another agency). If you are a PAA in one agency and move to another that doesn’t have PAA’s you could lose your permanent status after some time (I think a year).
I think the Community Coordinator title is just a way around the system for management. I wouldn’t suggest staying around for a long time as a Community Coordinator. One of the great benefits of working for the city is getting a permanent status and the security that comes with it.
And you’re correct on being under DC37 for that title. I see a few of them under local 372 and I think local 215. I also know that DoITT hires some for certain titles. DoITT supports hiring for the Mayor’s Office of Media and Entertainment (MOME) as well as other agencies and some of these positions are Community Coordinators.
Hope this helps! – Chris
Hello my question is I am a provisional worker and been one for a year in my position they haven’t had a test since 2012 and they saying they will not be giving a exam anytime soon so if I am here in another year will I be automatically a permanent worker after two years as provisional and is there a time frame of becoming a permanent worker without a civil exam.
Hi Robert,
Unfortunately there is no way to become a permanent without taking an exam and being called from a list. Although DCAS has been aggressively giving exams to reduce the number of provisionals, I don’t know how they choose titles to give exams for. I suspect it’s after a certain number of employees in a title are provisional and they need to reduce the count – but all provisionals are not supposed to continue for a period in excess of nine months. They normally don’t just let provisionals go after nine months – but they can.
It’s tougher now due to the COVID-19 situation and DCAS has delayed, cancelled and/or postponed exams. I don’t know how long before they start again so keep an eye on the DCAS website for updates.
Good luck! – Chris
Good Morning, Robert
I started as a provisional employee for the NYC Law Department three years ago in a title where the last DCAS exam in the title was 9 years ago. However, I took any DCAS exam that I qualified for based on my previous employment experience and education I had acquired. This year, before COVID-19, I was pulled off the NYPD PAA Exam 8069 list as a permanent employee and hired. Yes, I must pass my one year probationary period with the NYPD. Bro, always check the DCAS website frequently for exams, update your professional skills and educational pursuits. You got this! 💯. Josh
I’ve been hired for Housing Assistant, NYCHA provisional. Will I receive health benefits?
Hi Jose,
Yes – Full Time provisionals generally get all of the benefits that a permanent would – but make sure you check with your HR.
Good luck! – Chris
Hello so what happens is this are you a test for the title you working as a provisional if you do not take the exam for that title in the future the people who did take big zam and passed it can bump you out your position that means that they can let you go and hire someone who took and passed the exam so please keep an eye out for the exam you are provisionally working in because if you miss it and it comes out and people on it agency pulls for it you will be like go.
Hi Angel,
If I understand your question/statement correctly – yes! You can absolutely be bumped out by not taking the test and having someone who did take the test get the job. I know because I had to unfortunately do that to someone on my team. They refused to take the test and thought that I could somehow protect them. I couldn’t.
When the time came it was very hard – they lost their job by not taking the test. I didn’t even have the chance to reach him because he wasn’t on the list… I think I could have kept him even if he was last on that list. But he didn’t even try. I don’t know why.
If you’re a provisional, make sure you take that test when it comes up!
Good luck! – Chris
good evening Chris, I was currently on probation as a maintenance worker for Provisional. i picked up civil service status late december. My first 3 evaluations my cs status said provisional, for my final evaluation my cs status change to permanent competitive. would that consider me to be permanent civil service now? Do i have to serve another probation period?
Good question…
I would recommend you ask your supervisor, manager, or HR for clarification on that.
The agencies I’ve worked with typically had a probation period during provisional hire and then another upon becoming permanent. See section Section II – Probationary Terms.
It’s a little less rigid if you’re a permanent serving in a promotional title (Section II, 5.2.2(a)):
“a permanent employee has served in a promotional title and particular job assignment on a provisional or temporary basis for a continuous period equal to or greater than the probationary period for that title immediately prior to a permanent promotion to such title or, as determined by the commissioner of citywide administrative services, in a title in a similar grade and in such particular job assignment or similar job assignment in the same agency, the promotee shall not be required to serve a probationary period upon such promotion.”
But it doesn’t sound like that’s the case for you. But in any case the rules say that “Appointees shall be informed of the applicable probationary period” in a few places and agencies sometimes forget the details. So you wouldn’t be out of line to ask.
Hope this helps and good luck! – Chris
Is there a certain time frame in which a test must be offered to a provisional employee?
Hi Justin,
There doesn’t seem to be a particular time frame in which a test must be given. There is a maximum time that a provisional is supposed to work as a provisional – under section V, 5.5.2 – which is nine months. Under 5.5.4 (b) of that same link, it refers to “… a new provisional appointment may be made to any such position remaining unfilled by permanent appointment” which I suspect can be referred to in keeping a provisional onboard until another test is given.
Good luck! – Chris
For 20 years I have been working as a provisional in mail services for Cuny. I understand there is to be a test come Sept. I am very worried about this since I have a problem with test taking. Any suggestions?Also I Have a mild learning disability. Thank you
Hi,
NYC has some information that may be of help here.
In addition, NYC has a 55-a program that may be of interest. The 55-a program might keep you working without having to take an exam.
Hopefully this helps – and good luck! – Chris
Great article, thanks for posting. I work for TBTA for 20 years and have a permanent Bridge and Tunnel Officer title. I was promoted into a managerial position which legally is a provisional title. For one reason or another it may be time to request return to my permanent title. Does the job hold any rights to force one to stay in a temp position and not go back to their permanent position?
Thank you
Hi Rich,
I’m not sure how it works in regards to the TBTA, but if they follow similar DCAS rules, NYC provisional managers should be able to go back to their permanent civil service title as discussed within Personnel Services Bulletin 320-2, somewhere around section IV, subsection C.
Although it doesn’t directly speak to it, you may get push back that there “needs to be an open position or you may “bump” someone with less time”. I suppose they could present this argument. DC37 has a methodology in the Citywide Contract somewhere around page 48 that sort of speaks on this in more of a layoff/restructuring methodology. You may have to get union guidance if it goes this way…
Hope this helps a bit and Good Luck! – Chris
Yes we follow DCAS guidelines and are in NYCERS. Thank you,
Great article, thank you for taking the time to give us some actual first hand information.
I took a Project manager Exam back in November and scored 57 out of 80. 71% pretty low..
The lists are expected to be out end of this year, but I already applied to certain jobs and had an interview last week. They called me the next day saying that they are very interested and would like to proceed.
I would be hired as provisional, but I am worried for the future because I scored very low. On the end of the interview they just asked me if I passed, and were nor worried about the score. I have been in my current company over 10 years, and would not like to leave for something that will be an issue later.
What are your thoughts? Should I be worried?
Hi,
Congratulations on passing the exam – and don’t worry about the percentage – passing is passing and making it onto a list is the hard part.
Well, I have to say that I do not like the idea of being hired provisionally like that. I don’t know why they wouldn’t just call you off of the list… Probably you’re not “reachable” yet – sometimes agencies wait a while until they think the list has gone down in number and then they can get to you (like using the 1 in 3 rule, etc.)
There are a few considerations that would have to be made. First, the city does have a lot of Project Managers and a list of 80 is kind of small – so you should be reachable in a bit of time. Second, do you like your present job or are you chomping at the bit to get out? Are you willing to take the risk? Third, what if they get stuck and have to take someone because of the 1 in 3 rule? That will bump you out and you won’t have any recourse.
Even though they mentioned that “they weren’t worried” about the score, I bet if you asked for some assurance in writing they wouldn’t give it to you…
When I came to the city as a provisional, I didn’t quite know what that meant at first. But I knew the private company I was working for at the time was making some changes that wouldn’t have worked for me. I knew I had to bail out whether it was to the city or another private company. As a matter of fact, it was a difference of only one week that made the difference. A private company made me an offer exactly one week after the city hired me. It was slightly more lucrative but I wanted the long term stability of the city.
When I did pass the test, the agency I worked for downplayed making me permanent. “What are you worried about” my old boss advised. I had to gently threaten that I would go to another agency that called me to encourage them to make me permanent.
I know a long story. But the short opinion is no – don’t leave your present company unless you really can’t stand it or something negative is coming that will compel you to leave anyway. You would probably be ok – but it is a gamble.
Good luck! – Chris
Thanks for the reply.
They are hiring as provisional because the list is not out yet. We were told at the time of the exam tha it takes around a year after the exam for lists to come out. So probably December 2020 they will come out. I am still ok at my current job, but I want ot move on. I don’t know how long will the list be, but I know that I will be at the bottom of it..
Almost two weeks ago they called me and told me that they have to repost the job, and that they will let me know when it comes out to apply. Two weeks have passed and still no job posting or phone call. What does that mean?
Hi,
Although they said they would let you know, I suspect they are very busy and might have forgotten or possibly misplaced your contact information.
I suggest you take the lead and contact them and keep an eye out for agency posting. If you have someone at the agency you’re looking to work for, don’t hesitate to contact them too.
You’ll probably have to wait until this Coronavirus situation is over – DCAS has stopped all testing for now and some agencies may have modified their hiring process. But try anyway.
Good luck! – Chris
Hello chris, I love the article. I’m currently in a jam, I have excepted the provisional position of (service repair electronics) I’m in 5 months ago and took the civil exam a month after hiring. I just recieved my score and I failed it. The eligible list has 20 candidates my employer needed another tech besides me before this list becuse the previous list was exhausted so they hired provisionally . This test is only giving every 3 years, do you have any advice for me?
Hi James,
I’m not familiar with that title, but that doesn’t matter regarding handling provisionals and permanents.
Unfortunately, it might be a problem.
Several things would have to happen for you to be safe for now:
– The agency might wait to call the list and hope other agencies pick up the qualified candidates. They may or may not. This would clear the list down.
– The candidates might not meet the qualifications, experience requirements, and/or not have the appropriate license (if needed), so that would remove them from consideration
– Some candidates may not wait to be called and they’ll take other jobs – private or city
– Some candidates may already be working for an agency and just needed to take the test to become permanent – so they’re not filling another Provisionals’ job
With all of the people involved – from your HR, DCAS, and your own work area (division, bureau, shop, etc.) it would be unlikely that someone could keep you “under the radar” so to speak.
This is a tough situation. I had several employees who were in this situation and a few had a difficult outcome (I had to let them go).
So, what you can do. You can take as many other exams as you are capable of and qualified for so you might be able to move – you’d keep your time in service, benefits, etc. You can see if your agency has other openings that you can move to in the meantime (but that is difficult and not common). You can keep an eye out for similar jobs in NYC Jobs and apply – again, if they’re hiring provisionals you’d keep your time and benefits. Your pay may change, so you’d have to consider that.
No easy answer.
I hope things work out and the best of luck to you! – Chris
Hey. So I’m a provisional worker. An exam was released for a lower paying title but similar job. I received a score of 100. Now what? I am number 45 on the list. Why am I number 45 if 1 through 100 all got 100s on them exam. How do they determine that? Do I just wait now? Do I stay in my current title? So confused..
Hi,
You bet it’s confusing… so there are several ways they sort out the list.
First, a veteran is eligible for veteran’s credit. This will bring them higher on a list. Sometimes you’ll see a “v” designation next to the score. That means veteran’s credit was applied.
Then, believe it or not, they sort by social security numbers:
4.4.11. Candidates With Same Final Examination Rating.
Whenever two or more candidates in an examination receive the same final examination ratings, their respective place on the resulting eligible list shall be determined for administrative reasons only by a sequence of the number derived from the last five and then the first four positions of their social security numbers.
You can find the gory details on the DCAS website here.
What you want to try to do now is ask your boss and/or your human resources office to take you off the list and use that title as a fallback position. You don’t want to take a pay cut for the permanent title if you can help it. You just want a place to land if the city or agency has budget cuts and wants to remove provisionals. Better to “fallback” to a lower paying job than it is to lose it.
Not all agencies will work with you on that – and there’s no requirement for them to do that. However, more often that not, they will try to work with you and make it happen. It certainly happened for me at one agency.
You’d also be surprised how quickly they’ll go through a list, so don’t be too worried about a number like 45. Many people take tests but aren’t fully qualified, they don’t meet some experience or credential criteria, or are just lucky. I’ve had many interviewees that passed the test but failed the interview. Some didn’t expect the work to be outside, others said they had experience but actually didn’t, and others worked for another agency and were waiting for them to call. And then the one-in three.
I hope this helps. You’re on the right track. And make sure you take the exam for your present title when it comes out!
Good luck! – Chris
If you are a provisional, is it possible that by the time a test is available for you to take – you may have been at the position long enough for them to post it as a promotional (if they really want to try hard to keep you). If so, would a provisional be eligible to take a promotional exam therefore limiting somewhat the competition? Also, I called my county and asked when I would be taking the exam and they said it depends when the state issues that test again. I thought they ordered the test for the person 30 days after being in the position.
Hi,
When does a test get scheduled… that’s a question I could never get a straight answer on. I don’t know who decides when to call a test for a specific title in NYC. I believe an agency requests the test through their group that supports the tests (e.g. FDNY HR requests DCAS to hold an exam for PAA for example) or DCAS looks for titles with the highest number of provisionals and then schedules the test. But both are unconfirmed by me – just an educated guess from watching this over time.
In most cases you have to work in the lower title to be eligible to take the promotional exam. Your HR or boss may try to do things to keep you – lets say you were a bookkeeperdoing budget work, maybe they would consider adding a title of associate staff analyst and moving you into that title. It would be highly unlikely because of the work involved – have two budget lines, get fiscal approvals, etc.
The Civil Service Laws pertain to the entire state – so I see you’re asking about a particular county. It seems they operate similarly to the city within their methods; most city agencies wait for DCAS to add the test to the calendar and for your county, they seem to wait for the state, as you mention in your comment.
Unfortunately, no, no one calls a test specifically for one employee, and a test is not ordered after someone works in a position for 30 days.
If counties, towns, villages, and cities held tests more often they wouldn’t have been in the provisional problem they’re trying to clear up now…
Make sure you know where to look for your exam and that you take it. You don’t want to miss it and do not make assumptions that you will somehow be ok – it will not work. Take the test and, if you pass, insist you get taken from the list and made permanent. That’s the benefit of civil service.
Good luck! – Chris
Hello, great page. I received a provisional offer however, upon further research of City Law, I see that provisional employees should not last more than 9 months. Is this absolutely true. Meaning in 9 months I wont be able to work there anymore. Can they terminate me ?
Hi,
It is true that, by law, a provisional should not be a provisional for more than 9 months. However, they usually don’t just terminate someone at that time – a provisional is usually good until a test is given and someone is called and made permanent – and hopefully that will be you.
But, one of the problems with being provisional is that they could terminate you, generally, at any time. Some bosses like to keep someone as a provisional as long as possible because they think it “keeps them motivated”. The provisional will perform at peak out of fear that they may lose their job if there are other competitive candidates or they have no union support. Actually, because provisionals can last a while, DC37 provides limited support if you’ve been a provisional for two years or more and are in good standing.
So make sure you keep watch for your exam and take it!
Thanks! – Chris
How Long does it take for final approval? I was offered, accepted did fingerprints and all and given start date and training but was told to wait for the congratulations email for specific info this i gave job notice and then told do not have final clearance as of yet so cannot start.
Hi,
I’d call them right away and advise them that you gave notice at your present job – especially being they gave you a start date. It would be best to have this in writing too, so if you could back it up with an email somehow it would probably help you in case you need to escalate.
Although it wasn’t common, there was times where funding was changed and all of a sudden a position that I was interviewing for no longer existed. Thank goodness I didn’t formally offer those jobs at the time. However, I wouldn’t have offered the job until I validated that the position was still viable and open with my boss and HR.
Hard predicament – I hope it works out…
Good luck – Chris
Hi Chris,
I am happy I came across your blog. I have been in the certified title of JOS for 7 years and then promoted under the certified title of AJOS for almost 3 years.
I recently got hired provisionally as a social worker but was told I have 90 days to move into NYC.
I asked the hiring unit if by chance I don’t move in time, causing me to get terminated or if by chance I was bumped by someone on the Certified list, will I be able to fall back to my previously certified title?
The individual In HR said yes, I got it in writing via email, but I received contradictory information from someone else.
With your experience and extensive knowledge you have displayed, do you believe this to be true? That I’d be able to fall back on my permanent civil service title worse case scenario ?
Hi,
Congratulations on the social worker job.
I’m making a couple of assumptions here. I’m thinking you’re a permanent Associate Job Opportunity Specialist and this move to Social Worker is within the same agency.
So, with my experience, you should be able to fallback to your previous title if this was all in the SAME AGENCY.
This would also most likely work in a different agency if they have AJOS’s working there – and they were able to work you into the title. And, you got confirmation from their hiring unit.
On one of my promotional moves to another agency, they did not support my permanent title that I held at my (soon to be) former agency and therefore, by choosing to go to the “new” agency as a provisional I had to know there was no fallback. It was a bit bold but I was confident that I would be able to get on some list and attain fallback status. I didn’t have to because later there was an exam for my title and I passed and was called off the list.
This is not quite the same as your situation, but I explain it here to show the due diligence needed as you move around.
With that, you look like you’ve done your due diligence – spoke with HR, and more importantly, got it in writing – so I think you’re good. But remember – I’m just a guy on the other end of a blog who’s not an “official” HR person or labor lawyer – just giving some armchair opinion.
You may want to check with the union too – I know it might be hard to get a good answer sometimes – but if the agency doesn’t honor the fallback (if needed) you’ll want the union to step up right away.
I wonder what the contradictory information was that you were given… perhaps a lack of trust that you’d be allowed to fallback…
I also think you can go back to your old title (if this officially a promotion) during your probationary period:
5.2.3. Status of Former Position Upon Promotion.
Upon promotion, the position formerly held by the person promoted shall be held open for the promotee, and shall not be filled, except on a temporary basis, pending completion of the probationary term.
You can find those details on the DCAS website here.
Hope this helps and Good Luck! – Chris
Hi Chris,
Thank you your insightful post. I hope you can help me with this area of confusion. I am currently on a list that is set to expire late next year. Is it true that if I applied directly on nycjobs for a position that is open to those reachable on this list, and I am hired, I will be hired as a provisional employee? I was told this is so because I applied directly for the job and wasn’t plucked out of the list by the agency in question. Further, I was told that once my list does expire and the new list is established, I will lose my job being that I’m not on the new list. Is my understanding correct? This is very strange and confusing to me that, even though I was on the established list, I still did not gain the rights afforded by passing that exam.
Hi,
I would say that’s possible that they would hire you as a provisional – but it doesn’t make much sense.
If an agency has a position open, they should be calling from the list to fill it. It would only be filled provisionally with a list that is active if it’s found that no one left on the list is qualified or they declined the job offer. So, really you shouldn’t be hired as a provisional if you are qualified, on an active list, and have been offered the job. Even if you came through NYC Jobs.
Now, why would they be advertising on NYC Jobs with an active list, I don’t know. Perhaps they believe the candidates don’t meet the qualifications somehow – but that’s determined during the interview process. But, some job postings will also say that “…only candidates on the list for Exam XXX or have filed for XXX should apply”. So I would apply on NYC Jobs and address this with the interviewer or HR during the course of this hiring process.
Hope this helps and Good Luck! – Chris
Hi Chris,
Thank you for your insightful post. I hope this is something you can help me with. I am currently on a list that is set to expire late next year. Is it true that if I found a job opportunity on nycjobs that’s open to those reachable through my list, and I apply directly on the website, if I get hired, I will get hired as a provisional and I will be unemployed once the new list is established? This just seems so strange to me being that I was on the list when hired but will have no security that the list entails for the simple fact that I joined later in the lists life.
Hi,
I would say that’s possible that they would hire you as a provisional – but it doesn’t make much sense.
If an agency has a position open, they should be calling from the list to fill it. It would only be filled provisionally with a list that is active if it’s found that no one left on the list is qualified or they declined the job offer. So, really you shouldn’t be hired as a provisional if you are qualified, on an active list, and have been offered the job. Even if you came through NYC Jobs.
Now, why would they be advertising on NYC Jobs with an active list, I don’t know. Perhaps they believe the candidates don’t meet the qualifications somehow – but that’s determined during the interview process. But, some job postings will also say that “…only candidates on the list for Exam XXX or have filed for XXX should apply”. So I would apply on NYC Jobs and address this with the interviewer or HR during the course of this hiring process.
Hope this helps and Good Luck! – Chris
Hi, Chris quick question. I was picked up of a list but im listed as part-time hourly. How go I resolve this so I can become permanent status.
Hi Sabrina,
That would be up to your agency to resolve. Check with your boss or HR department to see if they will call the list and bring you on board as a permanent. If not you may have to take a job with another agency that calls you from the list.
Sometimes an agency won’t do anything until you get called by another agency and plan to leave – then they get motivated 🙂
Good luck!
Hi there i have read your blog and i loved its detail. But i need your help i recently accepted a job for maintenance worker i passed the civil service exam with an 85 and i accepted a provisional position l. In the email the tenure portion for the position stated probable permanent (1 year probation) so my question is should i take my provisional hiring as a probationary period and expect to be left as a permanent at the end of the provisional period…. what should i do…..
Hi Ricardo,
It sounds like you have several things going on. First, it looks like you took a job as a provisional employee. So, a provisional is a provisional until you’re offered a permanent job, and it sounds like you were offered a “probable permanent” job. It’s “probable” because you have to successfully finish your probationary period and maybe some other things, like pass a background check or investigation, verify your credentials if required, etc. Once you finish your year probation your HR department needs to notify you that you successfully completed it and you are a permanent. You want to monitor this yourself – not hope they’ll remember. They don’t pay attention or follow up sometimes and you want to make sure you’re completed. I’ve known some employees that had their probationary period extended without their knowledge. Only when they asked did they find out.
Usually you have to complete a year’s probationary period even if you were a provisional for a long time. See Section II – Probationary Terms, 5.2.1 (a).
Check with your boss and/or your HR department to make sure you have accepted the offer, you are in your probationary period, and what date you officially started it. Try to get it in writing – the email is a good start as long as it acknowledges that you’ve accepted the job as of a certain date. Working as a provisional does NOT make you a permanent employee nor does is imply you have accepted the job as a probable permanent.
Sounds like you’re on your way! Good luck!
Thank you so much chris i have alot more clarity now so pretty much a provisional is a foot in the door and a way for the city to evaluate you and offer you a permanent position. As long as i handle my tasks i’ll be ok…. thank you much i will be sure to accept the permanent job offer when its presented thanks again…..
Hi Ricardo,
Being a provisional isn’t so much a way for the city to evaluate you as much as it’s a way to get someone to fill a job until they can hire someone off of a list. So don’t expect them to offer you a permanent job because you’re working as a provisional. You’ll still need to take the exam, pass it, and be reachable on the list. Be careful…
Being a provisional is helpful for them to know you and your quality of work – so your interview will probably go smoother if you got called from the list. But you still need to take that test!
And good luck!
Hi so I have been working with the city for over two years now. I was hired as a provisional worker but no exam has been released yet to become permanent in my position. When do I become permanent? Also I took an exam for another title which is similar to my current title but the exam was based on education and experience and I’m waiting for them to produce a list. That title is lower pay. Do I keep my current pay if my title is the “new” title. Might be confusing but hope you can give me some clarity. And how long can someone be provisional..it’s strange being provisional for long periods of time. Thanks
Hi Ryan,
Unfortunately, being a provisional for a long time has been the problem that the city is trying to fix.
You’ll be a provisional until the city does schedule a test, you take it, pass it, and are high enough on the list to be reached.
By law you’re supposed to be a provisional only for nine months. See Section V, 5.52 here. But, due to the large number of provisionals it’s taking some time – and the desire by some agencies to keep as many provisionals as possible because provisionals are limited in their union protections. DCAS has been trying to schedule tests and appoint people off of lists as quickly as possible.
Taking an exam for a similar but lower paying title might only help to provide some protection if you have to “fall back”. For example, if a test is given for your current title but they can’t reach you on the list and have to hire someone to fill you spot, you MIGHT be able to fall back to the lower-pay title just to keep your job. This would have to be worked out ahead of time with your boss and HR department. They would have to agree that you could have that fall back title as a permanent position but are working as a provisional in your current title. If not you’d have to decide if you want to be in a permanent title with the lower pay or stay as a provisional until a test is given.
It is complicated and it’s one of the reasons I started this blog – I moved to an agency that already hired a bunch of provisionals and none of them knew they were not in a permanent job. I helped them understand the situation, know the difference in their in-house title versus their civil service title, and watch DCAS for the exam. After some time – probably two years or so like you, thank goodness most of them were able to take the test, get picked up, and finally become permanent.
It’s frustrating, confusing, and not your fault – it’s the system…
Hope this helps!
I was hired as a provisional worker. A test is coming up soon in that title which I need to take and passed. However, I worked several years with the State. Is it possible, I wouldn’t have to re-take the test and would be able to transfer over to a permanent position. Or if I did, took the test and passed it, but I didn’t score high to be reachable. Could my supervisor, put in a good word for me to stay there if I’m a good worker.
Hi Kyra,
I don’t think you could transfer a state title to the city; you will probably have to take the city test to become permanent. But that’s a question for DCAS.
The time you worked for the state would probably transfer for retirement and pension. I think the tier you were in while working for the state would also follow you –and NYCERS (https://www.nycers.org/contact) could answer that question.
You’re right about the score and being reachable though… you will need to score high enough for your agency to pick you up. Unfortunately, staying because you’re a good worker isn’t enough when it comes down to being called off a list. That’s what started the whole ruckus with reducing provisional counts – it was unfair to keep provisionals around for a long time because they don’t have civil service protections even though some thought they did and losing them through layoffs causes a serious loss of institutional knowledge.
The only way you could possibly stay if you don’t pass is if the list is exhausted (run out of applicants) or the agency didn’t call candidates and the list expires. But there is a push to clean out provisional titles and most agencies are required to call off the list.
Good luck!
Hi Chris, first of all thank you for writing this blog, it helps me a lot reading through your writing and your response to all of the questions we are posting here. I would like to know, if I am hired as a provisional, but has actually took the civil service exam for my title, and is still waiting upon for a list to be created, if there is many people that scored higher then me with a 100 points but I only got say like a 90 points. Will I be replace by those pepole that got 100 points even if the manager likes me and that the team knows me better? Thank you again!
Hi Steve,
Hey, you’re welcome and I write this blog for people like you – I’m glad I can provide some help or at least some insight at what might be going on…
Anyway, unfortunately – yes – you could be at risk. But a lot depends on that.
First, the others have to be deemed qualified – regardless of passing the test. You would be surprised at how many are not qualified but somehow passed the test. A lot of times an agency may “strategically” call the list. For example, if they have several people lower on the list they may wait to call it in hopes that either the higher ones got picked up somewhere else or that they have another job and don’t want to come to the city now. Or that they were looking to just get a permanent “fallback” title and aren’t filling a position. I’ve done that myself. I changed to an agency that didn’t use my title from the other agency so I took an exam for a title that was accepted and became permanent in that title – I didn’t fill a position and I was removed from the list. I’ve also taken exams to have a fallback to a better paying title just in case there were cutbacks and my manager position was cut. I’d still have taken a hit on pay probably but still have a job. Check out my post regarding that here.
Then there’s the 1 in 3 rule (post here) where there might be a band of test takers who got the same score – they might be grouped as one whole group. So, if you had 1 at 100, 1 at 95, and 7 at 90, that would make all of the 90’s group eligible as 1 in 3.
There’s also the fact of how popular or technical a particular exam is. “Radio Repair Mechanic” typically gets less than 50 on a list but “Stock Worker” might get hundreds.
So you might be at risk depending on those factors – and your statement is exactly why the city follows the civil service process – they don’t want the appearance of favoritism or unfairness in hiring. It’s supposed to be merit based by taking an exam or by education and experience.
Hope this helps – thanks for reading the blog and good luck with getting picked up off the list.
Once you are – and get through the probationary period (yep- you still have it even if you’ve been working but it’s usually shorter) – you’ll have it pretty good.
Best of luck! – Chris
Good afternoon Chris I have a question regarding the following pertaining to my City Position which has the following:
Residency Requirement
New York City residency is generally required within 90 days of appointment. However, City Employees in certain titles who have worked for the City for 2 continuous years may also be eligible to reside in Nassau, Suffolk, Putnam, Westchester, Rockland, or Orange County.
I am required to perform work functions in (4) of the (6) the eligible counties and recently now in (5) counties ( Bergen, Essex, Hudson, Middlesex, Passaic and Union) in NJ which are not listed.
So how can I be made to perform work in these counties but unable to live within these counties?
Hi Angelo,
It’s a good point, but I guess it boils down to the fact that you’re supporting the city of New York and this might be viewed as “traveling” for the job. I guess a rough example would be when I had stock workers who had the same requirement but I would have to send them to vendor locations in NJ and Long Island to pick up parts, inventory equipment, etc.
The city always wanted to restrict hiring to people living in the city but was forced to hire from “the outside” because positions were “hard to fill”. This “2 continuous years” requirement is a bit strange but I guess it was a way for everyone to come to a happy medium, I guess in the hopes that once in the city you’ll stay in the city. But that’s just a guess…
I don’t quite know what it would take to challenge something like that if it’s a concern for you – I don’t think a challenge to it would be successful and it would probably be two years before you’d get an answer anyway 🙂
But you never know – you don’t know if you don’t try. And I’ve been wrong many, many times…
Good luck! – Chris
Hi Chris,
I currently accepted a city job and only today learned that it was a “provisional” position. In my mind and in my conversations with my supervisor I was told it was a “manegerial” position and permanent, etc. I left my for profit job of 12 years to embark on this new journey which has a paycut thinking the benefits would outweight the risks. I was thinking, city job, stability, pension, and union to find out today during my new hire orientation that this is not the case.
I am disappointed and feeling lost. There is non civil test for my position so what should I do?
I am upset because I left a really good job (bear in mind I have a mortgage and 3 kids to think about).
What do you suggest? Take a civil exam for a lower position?
Please help!!!
Hi Marleni,
First off – don’t panic!
Most managerial hires from “the outside” are done this way, and there’s no reason to believe that you’ll be let go anytime soon, especially that they just hired you. So, being in a managerial position isn’t all gloom and doom, and you still get all the city benefits and pension, etc.
It is true that the city is looking to reduce the number of provisionals in the city. But the key is reduce – not eliminate. There will always be a need for provisional hires and therefore there will always be a number of provisionals working in the city.
With that said, you are right on with “hedging your bet” by taking a civil service exam so you can have a fallback position in case something changes and they have to cut back on provisionals.
A few ways to handle this. If you’re comfortable with you HR department you can bring this up with them. You want to ask them how you could secure yourself with a fallback position and what would be an appropriate title to aim for and what test to take. They would ultimately have to do this anyway if you had to be “pulled” from a list. I did this for one agency so I know it can be done.
If you’re managing some people or groups, you would probably want to take a test for their title. If you’re managing an admin office, you’ll probably take the PAA or Associate Staff Analyst exam. Computer System Manager, you’ll probably go for a Computer Specialist (Software) or Computer Specialist (Operations).
Sometimes it isn’t so clear. A manager doesn’t necessarily need to know the technical aspects of the trade – they just need to know how to manage and have a general idea of the business. In this situation you may just have to take an exam that is for something you’re qualified for, the pay is decent, and you wouldn’t mind doing if they were to cut back.
The key is making sure your agency will pick you up off a list in a fallback capacity. No sense taking tests that they won’t accept or call you off of – unless you want to leave to a civil service (union) protected position. I changed to one agency for a promotion but they didn’t accept my fallback title from the former agency. So I didn’t have a fallback myself for a year or two. I did finally take an exam for a title that they accepted and finally became a permanent in that fallback title. But this was just for my own piece of mind. This sounds similar for you.
So, I can’t say that you shouldn’t worry, but your thinking is correct – no one generally comes to the city for a raise – it’s usually for the stability and protection. That is the same for me.
I hope this helps… good luck! – Chris
Hey Chris,
I just came across your article after an incident that is keeping me up at night and I am hoping for some guidance. The story…………. I am currently working for a non for profit organization for the past 9 years. Last year (2018) I interview with a city agency and was offered a position (interview in June 2018). Come February 2019 the processes started for hiring and upon the final paperwork I was asked if I took and passed the dcas exam for the current position I was about to start. I explained to them that I was able to register for the exam but did not attend due to having the flue (I did not know that I was able to reschedule the exam). They have explained that I can be hired as a provisional, but knowing that after dcas generates the list I can be bump of my position. What do you suggest? Should I take the job, or remain at my current job that I no longer love? Is there anything that I can do? Is there any other test that I can take and pass to keep the provisional job?
I know I should have taken the test but I was hoping for the exam to come out again (after doing research the exam comes out every 4 years). I feel hopeless.
Hi Jonathan,
Well, unfortunately, I don’t have much to cheer you up with… It is true – you can be bumped from the job by someone who passed the test. And it would take an extraordinary amount of confidence that the agency that picks you up would work every legal way around the system to keep you on board and reject candidates off of the list.
Your confidence level depends on the job and the level of skill needed to perform it. So, I usually use the example of Radio Repair Mechanic. With the required experience needed (5 years in the business), the requirement for a FCC License, I’ve seen many times where provisionals didn’t lose their job because either 1) the candidates did not have a FCC License or the right experience (i.e. they were an electrician and somehow got through the radio questions) and therefore unqualified and/or 2) the list was exhausted (all candidates were either hired by their agency or found unqualified). But in recent years the Radio Mechanic test has been “modified” to have less radio/technical questions and incorporate general safety and soft-skill (i.e. working with others or understanding rules) questions. This increased the size of the list and number of candidates, so even my earlier examples of provisional Radio Mechanics surviving through a list call is reduced.
And with the city under-the-gun to reduce provisionals, it’s harder than ever to be able to fight and keep a provisional over someone on a list. Regardless of how skilled and capable the provisional is.
So, I don’t recommend taking the provisional job unless you can live with the possibility of losing it. As far as other exams, you’d have to speak with the agency to see if they’d be willing to change it to a different title and bring you on board that way. But that is a big ask and unlikely to happen.
Without knowing your particulars or skills it’s hard to suggest options. There are some civil service titles that require no test, like Community Coordinator. These get posted with a different in-house title like this one or this one. You’d have to search the NYC Jobs site but that might be an option.
Otherwise you’ll have to look for exams that are coming up and see if they match your skill set. That could get expensive so make sure you’re qualified for the positions so you don’t waste time or money.
But although you missed this one, remember – there are different tests and other jobs! As a particular saying goes “Never give up on something you really want. It’s difficult to wait, but worse to regret.” Let this momentary setback be a “lesson learned” and “water under the bridge”. You’ve been in your present job for 9 years, I suspect you could handle a bit more unless something dramatically changed and made it unbearable. Better to find a city job where a test hasn’t been given yet or take a test to get yourself on a list.
I hope this helped – and keep your chin up!
Good luck! – Chris
So recently did a hiring pool and received an offer from an agency….currently i’m a provisional with the city – in the title the offer is for. When I was hired in my provisional title it took a long (long) time. Is the transition from provisional to possible-permanent an equally long haul?
Hi HipHopSays,
I guess it depends on how the agencies handle it. Most agencies want you on board quickly and you’re coming off a list so it should also move quickly. The agency that you’re leaving may try and delay it if they need you but they can’t really stop it. It’s all about the politics.
I would think it wouldn’t be as long as getting hired as a provisional. Sometimes that takes a while, especially when it’s around the end of the fiscal year where budgets are getting examined and internal battles take place to keep positions open and moving. But this is a bit different where the city wants employees to become permanent and if an agency is calling from the list they’re pretty much ready to go.
So, I said a lot but probably didn’t help much 😉
But, I don’t think it will be as long as it took to come on board as a provisional.
Congratulations and best of luck! – Chris
I was hired as a provisional and my senority did not count when I became permanent. Does provisional time count towards your senority? Was this ever changed?
Hi Will,
Using the DC37 Citywide contract as a reference, seniority basically only counts towards the earning of annual leave and sick time, and also as a method of handling the order of layoffs.
I ran into this several times over my career and there was no other seniority-based recognition; like who gets first vacation pick, or who should get assigned to certain jobs or shifts.
So, depending on the specifics you’re talking about, seniority may or may not factor in.
In the DCAS rules, there is no specific discussion on seniority except under Rule V:
5.3.9. Credit for Provisional Service.
No credit in a promotion examination shall be granted to any person for any time served as a provisional appointee in the position to which promotion is sought or in any similar position, provided, however, such provisional appointee by reason of such provisional appointment shall receive credit in the permanent position from which promotion is sought for such time served in such provisional appointment.
That’s a mouthful and what I gather is that time served in a “promotional” position would count towards time served in your permanent position. This doesn’t quite answer your question but it does imply that time served does count in your “previous” position – although this is discussing a promotion.
Under DC37, the reference in Appendix “E”:
“This is to confirm our mutual understanding and agreement that employees who are affected by the personnel actions set forth below shall not lose or gain seniority for the purposes of implementing the accrual rates set forth in Article V, Sections 1 and 19(b), and Article VI, Section 6 of the 1995-2001` Citywide Agreement:
2. An employee who is in pay status (whether full-time or part-time) and is permanently appointed in the same title or a new title.”
The two articles in Appendix E reference the accrual of time and leave.
That’s about all I can muster up on the topic, you might have to reach out to your union if you’re having challenges with a certain situation or something in the change of how your time and leave is accrued…
Good luck – Chris
Hello, currently I work for NYC as a provisional worker. A civil service exam has opened up in which I qualify for, but the pay is much lower then what I receive now. I would like to get a permanent title, what will happen if I am chosen for the lower salary position? Could I work under my provisional title but be permanent as a different title? Sorry confusing.
Hi Ryan:
Not confusing at all! As a matter of fact, you’re right on track with that kind of thinking…
The first thing, though, is that you’ll need to verify that your HR and boss will support this. This would be known as having a permanent “fallback” position. Your agency should be supportive of this. In most cases someone works in a lower title as a permanent and gets promoted to a provisional title; you’re just doing it a bit differently. I know this is possible because I was in a similar position and did exactly this. I transferred to an agency that didn’t use my previous civil service title and I wanted a permanent fallback title in this new agency. So I took an exam that was not directly in my promotional path but close enough that the agency was willing to appoint me to that position off that list as a fallback position. I passed the exam and made it to the list. But before they were able to appoint me from that list a Qualified Incumbents Exam (QIE) came up for the title I was working in. All of that went through faster. So I didn’t need the fallback once I was pulled from the QIE list and made permanent in my existing title.
So, you should be able to do this as long as HR and your boss are willing to treat this as a fallback situation. You shouldn’t lose your existing position, title, or money – unless there is some sort of cutbacks where you’re title gets affected. But that’s the idea of the permanent fallback. And we’ll all hear about it before that happens.
Good luck with it and hope it works out! – Chris
I was hired as a 90 day temp plumbers helper for a city agency. On my 90th day, they extended my time another 90 days. There is no civil service helpers list. After my second week in my second term I found out my agency hired 15 provisional helpers. Did I have an expectation to have been offered the job first. My reviews from my supervisors are excellent. I am a local 1 journeyman. Is this an issue I can take up with hr or with the union? Thank you.
Hi Atw:
I wouldn’t say an expectation, but it sure would have been nice for them to bring the opportunity to your attention!
I’m not sure of your terms of hire; you mention that you’re hired as a 90-day temp so I’m not sure if they brought you in through an outside agency as a contractor or if they hired you directly as a temp. I’m not familiar with hires brought in as “temps” other than those through an outside agency. So, if that’s the case then I don’t think the union or HR could help because you’d (probably) be considered a contractor.
With that said, it still wouldn’t hurt to first bring it up with your supervisors as to why this happened. If they don’t have an answer then HR would be the next stop. In my history as a supervisor and manager, I would know if we had open positions, either upcoming or actually open, and could direct contractors that wanted to work for the city (as well as provisionals) to the appropriate resource – HR or DCAS, etc. So why you weren’t made aware of this would be a question for your supervisors or their bosses.
If you are a temp that is an employee of the city and neither the supervisors nor HR can answer why you were overlooked then it might be helpful to get the union involved. But that’s only if you’re considered a city employee. It’s always best to start with your immediate supervisor and work your way up. They may have some key info that clears up why they proceeded this way.
Hope this helps and good luck! – Chris
Hello,
I was hired as a provisional in the NYC Department of education. This particular position that I was hired to does not have an exam. Knowing this, I am a bit skeptical as to if i’ll lose my job tomorrow or 5 years from now and I wanted to know, would there be any way that I could get myself a permanent title although there is no exam? If so, what would be the way to do so?
Thank you in advance.
Hi Richie,
Without more details it’s a bit difficult to determine; I presume that by no exam you mean that it’s an exempt, non-competitive, or unclassified service title. Referencing the DOE, I believe this might fall under the NYS Civil Service Law section 35 (found here).
I’m not too familiar with these titles, but generally if you didn’t have to take a test, get pulled from a list, or are represented by a union, then your job might be subject to the general provisions of DCAS Rules and Regulations (see PRR Rule 7, Section 5 here). Although you may not have the same protections as civil service appointed persons, there seems to be some limited due process rules including requirements to have annual evaluations and to know what performance standards you’re being held to.
I do know that some titles (i.e. Radio Repair Mechanic (RRM)) are used by DOE and that they take the same citywide test, are called from the list, and hold permanent status. Some tests are specified specifically for DOE (see this year’s exam schedule and look at Occupational Therapist or Physical Therapist). You would have to somehow find a certified title and convince the DOE that you belong there. But that might be a tough journey – there might be pay challenges, buy-in from the bosses, HR, etc.
Wish I had more to help with – best of luck! – Chris
Hi how are you? Im having a serious problem. Im a temp with the Department of Education for the past five (5) years. We currently have 5 lines open. Everyone is saying that my boss should hire me as a provisional until the test dates, the clerical associate test already pass. My boss is saying he cannot employ me as a permanent worker because I would have to take the test first. Where do I go and ask to get hired as a provisional worker since he is not helping me. A temp for five years filling in for a permanent worker who retired is unfair. What can I do?
Hi Abigail:
I presume you’re a temp working through a temp agency or other company. So, unfortunately, you have no particular leverage through the union, DOE’s HR, or even DCAS.
I don’t quite know what your boss’s reasoning is for not bringing you on board as a provisional but I could take a couple of guesses.
Budgets are sometimes broken down between Personnel Services (PS) and Other Than Personnel Services (OTPS). In many cases, hiring personnel through a temp agency, consultant group, or other outside group can be treated as a non-employee cost to the agency, or OTPS. This keeps the number of employees down on the overall count. For example, boss has a budget for PS for 9 people. But really 10 people are needed in the unit. So, by hiring a temp, the cost could come from a budget used for supplies, maintenance, and repairs; or specifically for “temporary” help. The problem is that there may be no “real” position to fill. Even though a vacancy was made when the person retired, they may have closed the position to reduce personnel counts, budgetary numbers, etc.
The second thought might be that, because of the city’s need to reduce the provisional count, the boss may not be able to hire provisionally. However, if there is no vacancy now, one would have to be requested by the boss, and then funded, approved, and then posted. This poses even more concerns.
If the boss has to post the position, there is no guarantee that you’ll be hired as a permanent. First you have to be reachable and then they have to choose one of three candidates (see this posting).
Now, if there are 5 lines open, they are posted, and are for the title you’re aiming for, you should be able to apply for them – unless there are requirements that you don’t meet, like you didn’t take the test, didn’t pass, etc. If you didn’t take the test and you get hired a provisional, once a list is made your job would be at risk.
Sorry for the long explanation. Unfortunately there’s no way to “make” the boss hire you as a provisional. You’ll either have to find another unit at DOE or another agency to hire you as a provisional, or just get on a list and wait to be called.
Good luck – Chris
Thanks Chris. You were of great help.
Thanks for your help Chris.
Just submitted paperwork to the civil service department in Buffalo for a position. They are saying the exam I’d be taking may be in fall. Now that I’m reading your post and I could be competing with others, would it be appropriate to wait until I’ve passed the exam to resign my current job? It would really suck to not pass (only get one try) and be out of a job.
Hi:
Well, your question depends upon your situation…
Some things to consider:
– Do you like (or at least tolerate) your present job enough to wait until a test is given or list established?
– They may fill it with someone else in the meantime. That person MIGHT have an edge because they will already know the job and be familiar to people in the office by the time a test is given and list certified. For example, using the 1 in 3 rule, say there’s you at number 1, someone else at number 2, and this person working as a provisional is number 3 on the list. They have to choose only one of the three. Even if all three of you are qualified and want the job, if they like the work of number 3, and they already know them and their work habits, etc., they can immediately choose them.
– Yes, if you do take it as a provisional, you might be at risk losing your job if a test comes out and you’re not “reachable”. So, if you’re in a position that is popular, say something like a “Clerk/Typist” or “Principal Administrative Aide (PAA)” where hundreds usually make the list, you have a higher risk of losing your job if you’re not high enough on the list than a title that requires a certain skill and the list is usually smaller, like Auto Mechanic, Construction Project Manager, or Radio Repair Mechanic.
When I worked in the private sector, things were great until there were some management changes and consolidations that I saw coming that were concerning, so I came to the city as a provisional. Although I didn’t quite understand the details of being a provisional at the time, I was willing to leave my old organization due to those changes. However, once working for the city and I understood the whole “provisional – take test/get on list” situation I made an “agreement” with myself that if I didn’t pass the test or couldn’t get picked up I would start looking for another job. Although many of my coworkers were willing to stay on as provisionals, I didn’t like having that provisional designation “hanging over my head”. Thankfully I passed and the rest is history…
These are just a few things to think about; the list can go on. Unfortunately there’s no easy answer.
Not much help, I know… but I hope it gives a little bit… good luck! – Chris
Hi Chris – my employer informed HR that I should be allowed to take a QIE exam for my title. I have been with the organization since October 2014. Two years ago I was promoted from manager to deputy director. I have had no negative performance appraisals. I am non-union. I passed the QIE with a score of 100. Now my new supervisor refuses to approve my transition to civil service. Do I have any recourse? Thank you.
Hi:
I’m making some assumptions that you’re in the same title but in a different level, say from a level 1 (manager) to level 2 (in-house deputy director) where you were eligible to take the QIE. Or, that you were in your new (promotion) title for the two years allowing you to qualify to take the QIE. You’re allowed to take the exam (and pay the non-refundable application fee) before your qualifications and prerequisites have been evaluated.
This is a bit of a tough one. If you’re a member of the NYC Managerial Employee’s Association they say they can help with legal services for both job related issues as well as non-job related issues and provide advocacy for managers. Unfortunately I haven’t had good results with them when I was a non-union manager because they have a “little bark” and even less of a “bite”. They realize that they don’t have the same leverage as the unions so they tend to be non-assertive in their support.
Another thing you might consider is to contact DCAS and see what they have to say. They are under the gun to reduce the provisional count and, by your agency not allowing you to obtain permanent status, does not support the city’s objective. Heck, I’d even use the “Email the Commissioner” link and advise her of the situation.
If none of those options work it might be worth contacting a labor attorney. I think it’s a problem that you are being restricted in obtaining permanent status – it leaves you wide open for any future layoffs or cutbacks where provisionals are the first to go – not to mention any “personnel actions” that limit any recourse you have as a provisional (see DCAS PSB-320-2 especially under III. Procedures, section A compared to C). The Chief has several advertised attorneys that appear to have knowledge of these situations. I haven’t used any of them so I couldn’t recommend any one in particular.
I hope this helps in some way – and good luck!
Chris
Hi,
I was hired into my position in August 2017 as a provisional employee.
There was supposed to be a test for my position opening for filing this month but it got cancelled.
Is there a way to know when the last test was/if there is an existing list or one that will be created before I next have the opportunity to take the test?
Thanks!
Clara
Hi Clara:
Unfortunately being hired as a provisional and not knowing is commonplace. And even if it is mentioned it might not be explained or it might just be “glossed over”. This is one of the reasons I started this website – when I moved to another agency I found all of my employees were provisional and they had no idea what that meant. Employees in other teams had similar findings plus dozens of other questions – I figured I could help others with the same questions.
Back to our story… so I don’t know of an easy way to find out if a list is still active, but I think I have a way through NYC Open Data. I searched under DCAS and found a list showing Civil Service List (Active). I searched the link and it seems to only show open competitive lists, no promotional or QIE lists. I was able to find myself on the one open competitive but I also know I’m on a QIE list and it doesn’t show. If my link doesn’t work you may have to start from the beginning at NYC Open Data scroll down to Datasets by Agency and look for Department of Citywide Administrative Services (DCAS).
I don’t know if DCAS would directly answer that question – I think they may only discuss exams you filed for but it’s worth a shot – call 311 and ask to be transferred to the “DCAS Civil Service IVR” per the website or call them at (212) 669-1357 or try speaking with your HR people.
Good luck! – Chris
I was hired as a provisional in August 2017. I didn’t realize it at the time or I might not have left my job.
The exam posted for my position was scheduled to be open for filing for this month, but when the filing date came around it was marked as cancelled.
My question is, is there a way to find out if there is or will be an existing list for this position that my agency will need to hire from, or whether I’m safe until they finally open another exam for it and I can take it?
Thanks!
I am beginning a provisional position for NYC under Dc37 in 2 weeks. There is no test yet announced so I know I will have some time. Do you know if provisional employees are entitled to the same benefits such as time off?? Or do we only get 1 sick day per month? Just curious. Thanks!
Hi Jay:
As a provisional you’ll accrue time and leave just the same as if you were a permanent. You’ll want to take a look at the DC37 website and look at the Citywide Contract. Even though the contract term says 1995-2001 it’s still in effect today.
Time and Leave starts on page 10 and shows you how your time is accrued. Remember, it continues to build up if you don’t use it (generally – there is a limit). So there’s no rush to use it by the end of the year, for example, unlike many private industry requirements.
So, for vacation, or Annual Leave, you’ll accrue it depending on your weekly work hours. For example, if you work a 40 hour week you’ll earn 10 hours a month, or 120 hours per year, or 3 weeks of time. According to the contract you can’t start using it until after 4 months of service.
Sick time does accrue about one day per month but the “new” provisions say that if you have less than 3 years of service it accrues as 11 days per year (see page 12 of the citywide contract). If you are in a “prevailing wage” title like Radio Repair Mechanic there might be some variations – prevailing wage titles negotiate variations to the citywide contract and I know that Radio Mechanics lost some days in an earlier agreement but may have won them back.
Take a good look at the Citywide Contract. It will explain a lot of things in addition to Time and Leave. For example, as a provisional you don’t really have any protections until after two years, where you have some protection if you have any disciplinary issues (see page 46). It will also explain rules on lateness, safety in the workplace, and lots of other good stuff.
In addition, find out who your shop steward is. If you know what local you’re in you can check with them here.
Congratulations and good luck with your career in the city!
Chris
After completing your probationary period, after being appointed to the civil service title, is your Human Resource Department or DCAS required to notify you that you successfully completed your probationary period and have changed status from “Civil Service -Probable Permanent” to “Civil Service – Permanent”? If not how would one attain confirmation that you’ve successfully completed the requirements of the civil services process? Looking for official policy and potential reference points.
Hi Dave:
Under Personnel Services Bulletin 200-6R section I.A.1 “The probationary period begins on the date the employee reports for work in the title after appointment from the list.”
So, if you started as a Probable Permanent after being called off of a list, your start date would be the beginning of the one year probation period. Same goes for a promotion as per section I.A.2.
Under section II. A.: “All employees should be informed in writing of the applicable probationary period prior to the start of the probationary period… This written notice should be given at the job interview or by mail.”
Under section II. C.1.:“1. At least one month prior to the completion of the regular probationary period, the agency must notify the employee in writing that the employee’s probationary period will be extended.”
And under section II.E. 1:” It is advisable for the agency to evaluate each probationary employee once every three months. These interim evaluations should be discussed with the probationer. Each evaluation prior to the final evaluation should contain a statement recommending the retention or termination of the probationer or the extension of the probationary term. The final probationary evaluation report should include only a recommendation to retain or terminate the probationer.”
Many of these are reiterated on a DCAS webpage here. See section 5.2.1. Probationary Term.
So, in a nutshell, you should have been notified in writing that your probationary period has started, and you should have had a few interim evaluations during that year.
I know some agencies get sloppy and miss the interim evaluations. But there should be an annual evaluation and there is usually a place for status either in writing or a check box of your civil service status.
Also – not all titles have a one year probation period. Some, like this NOE for Staff Analyst Trainee have a two year period. So, make sure the NOE for your title explains the length of the probation period. Old NOE’s can be found here.
For my agencies “back in the day” they actually did an evaluation every three months and I knew that I was past probation. Also as a manager, I would track my personnel and also do the periodic evaluations (with a nudge sometimes by my HR). But I was never advised that I HAD to tell someone they were off probation… and unfortunately I couldn’t find anything that says that a supervisor or manager had to…
Lastly, if you think you’ve completed your years’ service, you can first check with your immediate supervisor, and if not successful, contact your HR office. If you have trouble getting a clear answer and are a member of a union, you can reach out to your shop steward or local officers to get some traction.
I know this is a lot, not a clean answer, but I hope it helps.
Currently leaving one agency (DHS) as a Community Coordinator for a positon as Inspector (Housing) for HPD. I did take the exam which I’m not sure how well I did & the list has not been establised. But I was called down to a job fair where I was interviewed & later was offered a position. However, I’m concerned about being replaced if my score is not high enough & then not being able to return to my Community Coordinator position which has much more job security.
Thoughts?
Hi AJM:
Well, there is a DCAS Personnel Services Bulletin (PSB) 200-10 (link here) that does speak on that. Both the Community Coordinator position and the Inspector (Housing) positions appear to be “covered by the Citywide Agreement and… in an agency covered by the Personnel Rules and Regulations (PRR) of the City of New York” as written in the PSB.
The PSB basically offers an employee a title who are covered by the Citywide Agreement and “who are appointed to another position in the competitive, noncompetitive, or labor class that requires serving a new probationary period and in an agency covered by the PRR, shall have the right to return to their former title and agency if they do not satisfactorily complete the new probationary period”.
So, I recommend that you discuss this with both of the agencies’ HR people to see if this would apply to you. I don’t know if not passing the test or if you’re not reachable is the same as not satisfactorily completing probation – or perhaps they’re willing to work with you based on a good work history or similar. It seems that there is a lot of discretion in how they apply this PSB.
Good luck! – Chris
I jusr started last week in a provisional position. I noticed the exam for my title is coming up in June. Would I take the exam open to public or promotional exam?
Hi Gina:
You would most likely take the Open Competitive exam. The promotional exam is usually for those who are in a lower title that has a “direct line of promotion”. The Notice of Examination (NOE) has the requirements listed in the document.
For example, if you look at the upcoming NOE for Administrative City Planner (exam 8538) it has listed on the first page the eligibility to take the exam, and the first bullet has “…holds a permanent (not provisional) competitive appointment or appears on a Preferred List…for the titles of City Planner or Associate Urban Designer”.
Looking at another random one from the promotional archives, I selected the Administrative Project Construction Manager promotion exam 0501. On page 2 it lists the eligibility requirements that show “…holds a permanent (not provisional) competitive appointment or appears on a Preferred List…for the title of Construction Project Manager” which is the lower title to the admin.
Most promotional NOE’s have a statement of “If you do not know if you are eligible, check with your agency’s personnel office.” So, if you’re still unsure, I’d check with your agency’s HR/Personnel office.
Good Luck! – Chris
Thank you, Chris. When I do take the exam, is that something I let my manager know?
Hi Gina:
Sure, no harm in letting your manager know – and if the exam is scheduled during your work hours you might be allowed paid time off as per Personnel Services Bulletin 440-6 (link here).
Quick question, I am currently in a dilemma. I am new to the whole NYC civil service system. I moved from upstate leaving a job for a offer that I received with the City for a skilled position. When I was interview, no one told me that the job was provisional. They all told me that it is a full-time 40 hrs a week job with occasional overtime. All paperwork I completed, I was told to check “permanent” as my status. I have email correspondences to show. That was last year…..now about January or so, I guess the Dept changed the HR head and the new person contacted me 3 months into the job telling me that I am provisional. I was completely shocked….now they are telling me that my service is no longer needed and wants me to write a resignation letter. At the time when the HR head called me, the person instructed me to take the upcoming Civil Service Exam, which I did. I’m at a point where I don’t know what to do right because I have a family to take care of. I wouldn’t have left my previous position, if they had told me the job was provisional. Any advice?
Hi Shawn,
That is a dilemma… working as a provisional limits your rights and protections which is why I wrote this post to begin with. The agencies aren’t very good at explaining provisional vs. permanent status. They may say they “told you it was provisional” as if someone from the outside – and even many on the inside – know exactly what that means. I, too, was hired as a provisional and didn’t have a handle on that at the beginning…
There are several different unions and different agencies – “mayoral”, like Police and Fire; and others that are “non-mayoral” like the Transit Authority (NYCTA) and the Housing Authority (NYCHA). I’m presuming that you’re covered under the Citywide Contract with DC37 and I’m using that for this situation, even though I don’t think any of the other unions would differ from how they handle provisionals or what protections are available.
The city is under strong pressure to reduce their provisional counts and they’re doing that by holding exams and “calling candidates” from the list to fill them. I don’t know if this is a factor in why they’re asking you to resign. You also said you took the test so I suspect they don’t want to keep you on as a permanent either.
I don’t have much to suggest, but perhaps you can try some things. First would be to see if other agencies have openings in your title. You can take a look at the NYC Jobs site and see if you can find an opening there. If so, you will need your agency to “release” you if you are hired. This will keep the clock ticking on your provisional status. I also recommend you contact DCAS and discuss your situation. Maybe DCAS can provide some direction or at least they would know what the agency is doing. I would also contact your union local – either the shop steward or a local representative although they may back off a bit due to your provisional status. But with the recent challenge with the unions there is a desire to make and keep members so they may step up to your cause.
I don’t think your agency can force you to resign but I’m sure they can make it hard to work there (i.e. change your shift or hours). Because this is “putting food on the table” you may want to speak with a legal representative. My go-to paper – The Chief has a slew of resources that may be able to help – especially if you have documentation that backs up your situation.
Sorry for the long response and I hope it helps.
Best of luck – Chris
Hi
Thanks for the information. I was just recently hired under provisional as a program evaluator.
Should I be looking for a test under this title.
Hi Davis:
Yes! If that is your city title and not just your working title (see my post regarding that here).
I see that DCAS held one supporting ACS back in 2011 – you can check out the Notice of Examination here.
Looks like only ACS uses the title but I may be wrong… or that may be your working title (what they call you in-house vs. what your civil service title is). If you were hired under a CIVIL SERVICE title of, say, Child Protective Specialist, or Program Officer, you would have to look for those exams.
It is absolutely not uncommon to be hired under a particular Civil Service Title and have another in-house title. It happens all of the time, so make sure you look for the test that covers your Civil Service Title.
Looking over the remaining exams for the FISCAL year – DCAS uses the start of the city Fiscal year (July 1st) to provide the list of proposed exams – I don’t see Program Evaluator . You can either go to the DCAS website or come back here around mid-June – I usually provide links to the lists and commentary on the upcoming exams for the fiscal year.
Good luck! – Chris
Hello Chris,
I was hired as a provisional about 8 months ago and recently was interviewed for another provisional position with a different title but within the same department. If I accept the new provisional title will I need to resign from my current position and lose all the leave/sick time or would this transfer over and I would not have a break in service?
Hi Frank,
You shouldn’t lose any benefits, leave/sick time, and your time in city service should all continue on with no issue. As long as this is either a lateral move or a promotion/pay increase kind of move all of your benefits should stay the same – with the exception of moving from a collectively bargained/union title to a management title, where the change would only be in any overtime/comp time pay and how they count your work hours. I’ve known some people who wanted to force a move and resigned one agency and got hired by another, but I wouldn’t recommend anything like that. In that case you might be considered a “new hire” by the new agency and they might mess with some time and leave accruals…
I am in a provisional role with the city in a Manager role. When I was hired the onboarding HR person told me that I should take exams below my current title to help secure my position. Could you please explain if you know how this would work? does this help secure my position in any way?
If I took the test for PAA and got on the top of the list but my current provisional manager role pays significantly more than a PAA.
Do I get a civil service title just for passing the exam?
Too many questions to ask them all here but i think you understand my situation. Thank you for your help
Hi John:
As a city manager you generally have no job protections. You can be hired and fired at will and have no real recourse unless you were let go for illegal reasons, like discrimination of some sort. So, if there were to be layoffs, managers could be let go with little issue while union/collectively bargained employees are subject to layoff provisions that are part of their particular contract. This becomes somewhat troublesome for an agency because they will have to follow seniority rules, perhaps shuffle people between internal divisions or agencies, and possibly have to negotiate provisions with their union.
By taking a test and passing – not just any test but one that your agency will allow you to use as a “fallback” position – they can call you from that list, make you a permanent, and then keep that position available for you to fallback to should the agency have to lay off managers. You must also be “reachable” – high enough on the list where they can get you (See my posts on the 1 in 3 rule and Moving Up Through Civil Service Exams). You can get a list of all my posts by clicking the link under “HELPFUL LINKS” on the right side…
It is true that you may (but not necessarily) take a pay cut if you had to fallback, but at least you would have a city job with all of the benefits – medical, TDA, 401(K), retirement, etc. – and it would give you time to assess your next steps.
This recently happened to managers at NYC Health +Hospitals (See my post of “Civil Service Title Fallback Protection”). They had to layoff 400 managers due to budget issues and, according to an article in The Chief, 25 percent were able to revert back to their union title and therefore maintain their benefits and pension time and keep getting a paycheck. I don’t know how much of a hit they took on their pay, but at least it didn’t just go to zero.
Hope this helps and best of luck! – Chris
Where would I look to see if there is a provisional hiring? Where would I apply?
Hi Brian: I suggest you look at the jobs available at the NYC Jobs site (http://www1.nyc.gov/jobs/explore-careers.page#agencies). Unless the posting states specifically that “Only those who took test XXXX will be interviewed…” or something to that effect then it is most likely a provisional appointment. By specifying a test number, although the agency may hire someone as a provisional, it suggests that they anticipate hiring off of the list and, hopefully, keeping that new hire. However, that person is still at risk of losing their job if they are not “reachable” on the list, once established.
Good luck!
Currently in this situation and I am a state worker for more than a decade and I passed a state test however I was offered the job as provisional position which confused me because I passed with a 100
Hi Angela. Strange that they offered the job to you as a provisional. Maybe they meant probationary? I think you can be on probation even if you were provisional for a while, although I’ve heard that some agencies reduce the amount of probation time to six months or less. If you were picked off a list you should be considered “probationary permanent”. I’m assuming you are in the same title and not in a promotional title and on “leave” from the title you’re looking to become permanent in. Another thought is that there is a lot of “100’s” and you are not high enough to be reached. Yeah, after 10 years you want that permanent position… You may want to check with your union to make sure everything is on the up & up…